- What is he referring to when he says "those who fall asleep?" Dead
- Is there any corroborating information in the text?
- Grieve (why,unless dead); still alive (in contrast to sleeping), dead in Christ (in context, mentions the dead rising first)
- Verse 17, "caught up" is where we get the word "rapture." The Greek work is harpazo, our word is from the Latin equivalent
- The rapture is imminent but the Great Tribulation is not -- what does that mean?
- It is a theological distinction. There are specific events related to the Tribulation which must occur first, whereas the rapture can happen at any moment
- What do we know about the rapture from scripture?
- John 14:1-3 "Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God ; trust also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am." NIV
- No details, but some basic truth -- what do you see?
- Promise to take us to where he is going
- Where is he going? to Heaven
- This is counter to the post-tribulation view, where Jesus meets us in the air at his second coming and takes us with him down to the earth. Which is why pre-tribulation makes more sense. We are met in the air by the Lord and taken to Heaven. At the end of the tribulation we come back with Christ to earth
- In the 1 Thessalonian verses read earlier, we learn that the dead will not miss out, and we also get a chronological sequence, what do you see?
- The Lord descends from Heaven
- With a shout (probably a command for resurrection and translation)
- WIth the voice of the archangel (probably Michael repeats Jesus' command, much as you would see in many military units)
- With a trumpet of God (trumpet used for battle and worship; in this case it triggers the rapture itself and sets the plan in motion)
- The dead in Christ will rise first (this is limited to Church saints only; the bodies of OT saints will be resurrected at a later time)
- Then, we who are alive, shall be caught up (this is when living saints are removed from the earth)
- Meet the Lord in the air (so we return to heaven)
- Verse 50 explains the necessity of the rapture: our bodies are corrupt. This leads to a very long discussion on the intermediate state between death and resurrection (will be included in a later input -- a quick summary: our souls rise and are with Christ in heaven at death, but our bodies are not resurrected and changed into new bodies until the rapture)
- Gen 2:17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."
- When Adam ate of from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, he corrupted the body which God had given him. Because the body is now perishable, it cannot enter heaven. Therefore, we need a new body
- How will the change occur? Instantly
- When will it occur? At the last trumpet
- Here is where people try to place the rapture in the tribulation, they interpret it to be the seventh trumpet
- At the time Paul wrote this passage, John had not written Revelation, so no one would have interpreted it in that context (Fruchtenbaum, 2003). More likely, it refers to the Feast of the Trumpets, where there are a series of trumpet blasts followed by one long trumpet blast. When you look at the Jewish feasts, . . .
- There is a line of reasoning that suggests that the seven feasts of Israel have prophetic significance (Fruchtenbaum, 2003)
- The first four occur in the Spring and are fulfilled in the FIRST coming
- Feast of Passover - Jesus was our Passover lamb
- Feast of unleavened bread - absence of leaven where leaven is a symbol of sin in the OT; the power of sin is the law and represents the beginning of a new covenant not based on law
- Feast of First Fruits - Jesus' resurrection is called the first fruit (twice)
- Feast of Weeks - Pentecost
- Four month gap between the feasts
- Jesus said that there are four months until the harvest
- The church age is fulfilling that now
- The second three feasts occur in the fall and will be fulfilled in the SECOND coming
- Feast of Trumpets - Rapture of the church
- The day of Atonement - tribulation period
- The Feast of Tabernacles (booths; ingathering) - time of rejoicing after the tribulation
- The timing of the rapture
- Book of Revelation
- The church is mentioned in chapters 1 to 3, events prior to the tribulation, and in chapters 19-22, events after the tribulation
- The church is not mentioned in chapters 6-18, the tribulation period. Therefore the church is not in the tribulation (tribulation saints, individuals who come to Christ during the tribulation are present)
- Luke 21:34-36 "Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with dissipation, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you unexpectedly like a trap. 35 For it will come upon all those who live on the face of the whole earth. 36 Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man." NIV
- The only was to escape is to be able to stand before the Son of Man, and the only way to stand before the Son of Man is to be a believer (Fruchtenbaum, 2003)
- 1 Thess 1:9-10 for they themselves report what kind of reception you gave us. They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, 10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead — Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath. NIV
- The Thessalonians were waiting for Jesus' return
- Jesus will return for the believer and will rescue us from the coming wrath, the tribulation
- 1 Thess 5:1-11 Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. // 4 But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5 You are all sons of the light and sons of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6 So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be alert and self-controlled. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. 8 But since we belong to the day, let us be self-controlled, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. 9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10 He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him. 11 Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing. NIV
- God has not appointed us to suffer wrath
- Salvation is physical here and not just soteriological
- Rev 3:10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth. NIV
- There is a distinction between Church saints and Tribulation saints in Revelation
- This statement is to Church saints
1
Thess 4:13-18 Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall
asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14 We believe
that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with
Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord's own
word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of
the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the
Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice
of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will
rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught
up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we
will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage each other with these
words. (NIV)
1 Cor
15:50-56 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the
kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I
tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a
flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will
sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For
the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with
immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable,
and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come
true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."
55
"Where, O death, is your victory?
Where,
O death, is your sting?"
56 The
sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. NIV
Irv wrote: ... [ed. Much of this post was name calling of certain Christian leaders (some of whom I also don't look up to or agree with), unnecessary, and not reflecting Christ. Essentially, Irv's argument is that the character of these leaders, and their greed invalidates pre-tribulation and dispensational teachings.]
ReplyDeleteTo read more details about the eschatological British import that leading British scholarship never adopted - the import that's created some American multi-millionaires - Google "Pretrib Rapture Diehards" [ed. List of books, most with inflammatory titles.] Most of the above is written by journalist/historian Dave MacPherson who has focused on long-hidden pretrib rapture history for 35+ years. No one else has focused on it for 35 months or even 35 weeks. MacPherson has been a frequent radio talk show guest and he states that all of his royalties have always gone to a nonprofit group and not to any individual. His No. 1 book on all this is "The Rapture Plot" (see Armageddon Books online, etc.). The amazing thing is how long it has taken the mainstream media to finally notice and expose this unbelievably groundless yet extremely lucrative theological hoax!
I would like to respond to the above post which I heavily edited. There are number of logical fallacies which need to be examined, especially if we are evaluating the subject in a reasoned manner.
ReplyDeleteFirst of all, the character qualities of proponents of an idea do not determine the validity of the idea. This is very similar to the leftist argument that since David Duke is a Republican, therefore Republicans are racist. Or, if we evaluated Luther's character as opposed to the 95 theses, we might never have had a reformation.
An idea stands on evidence and logical reasoning, not on attachment to things that are ugly. Irv mentioned the Mayan Calendar in his note, the implication being that pre-trib or dispensationalism has some roots or complicity with it. That would be news to me. It is a little like saying that if you have the same birthday as a rapist, you are somehow linked ot the rapist.
My views are based on a particular hermeneutical approach to scripture. I take a "common sense" view. It is akin to a "literal" approach but recognizes that an author uses metaphor, similes, and symbolism, but makes it clear when the approach has changed. If someone says, "you nailed that point," I don't immediately begin wondering where the hammer or nail is, or to what the respondent thought I was nailing to -- I recognize that the sentence does not make sense with the use of a metaphor. In a nutshell, dispensational theology is a result of that approach to scripture.
FOR PRETRIB RAPTURE REPEATERS
ReplyDeleteCongratulations! You are now fulfilling the Bible which says "Come now, and let us repeat together."
Be sure to repeat what Walvoord, Lindsey, LaHaye, Ice etc. repeat what their own teachers repeat what their own teachers repeat etc. etc. etc.!
Repeat that Christ's return is imminent because we're told to "watch" (Matt. 24, 25) for it. So is the "day of God" (II Pet. 3:12) - which you admit is at least 1000 years ahead - also imminent because we're told to be "looking for" it?
Also repeat the pretrib myths about the "Jewish wedding stages" and "Jewish feasts" (where's your "church/Israel dichotomy" now?) even though Christ and Paul knew nothing about a "pretrib stage" and neither did any official theological creed or organized church before 1830!
You should read "Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty" on the "Powered by Christ Ministries" site to find out why you shouldn't repeat everything your pretrib teachers repeat.
Do I have to repeat this?
I decided to post the above comment, because unlike previous comments (from others, not Lou) there was no name calling or character attacks. Still, I am amazed at the satirical tone -- I don't think it honors Christ.
ReplyDeleteFirst of all, while I don't think I was repeating others' work but rather studying the scripture independently, I would argue that "repeating," if I was doing that, is still not wrong. We are told to repeat the good news to as many as possible. We are told to repeat the discipleship process -- "what you heard from me in the presence of many witnesses, entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others."
Secondly, my arguments come directly from scripture itself. Lou is correct in that the church for many years held to a post-millennial view, that things were getting better and we would usher in the millennial reign of Christ, which pretty much dismissed the tribulation. Many churches today view the church as replacing Israel in scripture, and so interpret passages symbolically, My view is to approach scripture logically. Unless there is reason, within the passage itself to suggest a symbolic interpretation, I interpret literally. This is the plain sense view of scripture, and treats the understanding of the bible as you would try to understand any other book.
The fact that the church may not have had a pre-trib view in the past, no matter the length of time, does not prove anything. I wonder how many used that argument against Luther in the years after 1517. In fact, my approach is to go to the scriptures to see what scripture says, not what people think today or yesterday. I am going back to the years 40-100AD to see what the view was at the time of the early church (as expressed in the letters). The fact that the Catholic church, which grew out of the early church, developed doctrines that are questionable is of no interest to me. My goal is to study scripture, as it was written then, interpret them in light of the context and the Jewish background, and apply them today.