JR: What "water" do you think Jesus is referring to in John 3:5? Birth? Or baptism? Im sure yall will say birth, but id like to confirm, and not assume.
JC: I am not a theologian, which means that I don't know for sure.
However, I always understood that phrase in John 3:5 to mean either baptism or the cleansing of salvation (John 4:14 / John 7:38). I tend to lead towards the latter because Jesus is the living water, and in John 3:5, water is mentioned before being filled with the spirit. Only salvation is required for the Holy Spirit to enter us. Not the best example, because Pentecost hadn't happened yet, but the thief on the cross was never baptized, and Jesus said that the thief would be with Him in paradise.
While I don't really know the correct answer, I do appreciate that you made me think about God. 😀
JR: Great points.
Ive been doing research. I heard a brother at church say he believes born of water means birth, but I'm finding myself disagreeing. To me, that is basically saying that if you are an unborn child, you obviously haven't been born by water and you cannot enter the kingdom.
So after doing a little research, I came across an interesting "theory".
God says in Ezekiel 36:25-27
25 “Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.
26 “I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
27 “I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.
Then in Isaiah 52:15 God says,
"so shall he sprinkle many nations.
Kings shall shut their mouths because of him,
for that which has not been told them they see,
and that which they have not heard they understand."
it talks about Jesus "sprinkling" (possibly of this clean water) many nations which I believe its referring to redemption and not salvation of course, but It's very interesting to think about some sort of correlation perhaps.
Also, something els I have been looking into, funny enough you mention it. As far as the thief goes..
baptism before Jesus' death, burial and resurrection was different from baptism after it happened. How could Jews be baptized in Jesus' death and raised up in a newness of life(resurrection) when none of this has happened yet? The new covenant hadn't started until Jesus said "it is finished" and died.
Jews got baptized by John the Baptist for repentance for remission of sins to get people ready to receive the messiah.
Lately I've been on a mission to explore all things said by Jesus that had to do with entering the kingdom/not entering the kingdom.
He has made it clear on both ends stating stipulations on entering the kingdom. Im really trying to keep in mind that the blood of Christ is enough for salvation. I dont dare take anything away from what Christ did. But im battling with trying to figure out how these works come into play. I mean, I understand we will always fall into sin from time to time. But Jesus was teaching followers of Him. He knew they would be saved, but He still said if you "do this" you will not inherit the kingdom.
This is one reason I'm against the the whole "being convicted of a sin" is not a good excuse for people who claim to be Christian to continue to commit sins they aren't convicted of. Yes, there's a sanctification process, but we have to be more strict (in my opinion) on rebuking, reproving and exhorting our brothers and sisters. And even ourselves.
Sorry, I know I just ranted about a lot lol
TM: So I appreciate your thinking JR as well as your thoughts JC. It is good to think outside of the box.
I would challenge you on a couple of assumptions. One is that the unborn are not born of water. That is like saying red is not un-red. But really, an "unborn" child sits in a sac of water (actually amniotic fluid). Even if the Mom dies, at some point that sac will break and the child will be born dead or alive. Either way, the child has be growing in water. This is a case where we may be over-thinking details or technicalities.
Another assumption is that sprinkling refers to water. Once a year, the high priest, using a hyssop branch would sprinkle the blood on the mercy seat in the Holy of Holies. Actually, there were quite a few symbolic cleansings using this approach. In the verse you quote (Ezek 36:25-27), it does say water, but that would not be baptism since it is only sprinkling. Baptism also represents burial which is why we do full immersion.
There are a number of sects that also believe baptism is required for salvation:
- Roman Catholic Church: Views baptism as a sacrament that removes original sin and bestows sanctifying grace, necessary for salvation.
- Eastern Orthodox Church: Considers baptism a fundamental sacrament that forgives all sin, including original sin.
- Churches of Christ: Strongly promote baptismal regeneration, viewing baptism as an essential step following repentance for salvation.
- Lutheranism: Believes in baptismal regeneration, where the Holy Spirit works through baptism to regenerate a person and remove sin.
- Anglicanism: Many within this tradition hold that baptism is a sign of regeneration and is necessary for salvation.
- Oneness Pentecostalism: This group also includes baptism as a necessary component for salvation.
- Latter-day Saints (Mormons): Baptism by full immersion is considered a significant and essential ordinance for salvation.
I believe baptism is commanded, but to equate it to salvation would require all of Jesus' commands to be required for salvation. We are commanded to make disciples, but few do.
The most important argument is found in the passage, the context.
Jesus starts out by telling Nicodemus he must be born again. Nicodemus understands him to mean a second physical birth. Then Jesus say a person must be born of water (physical) and the Spirit (spiritual) to enter the kingdom of God. This reiterates his original statement that you must be born again. He continues the analogy of born in the flesh is flesh and born of the spirit is spirit. This second statement clearly parallels the water (flesh) and spirit (spiritual) preceding statement. Then Jesus only focuses on the second, the spiritual rebirth, when he talks about the wind. You can't see the wind but you see its impact, so it is with spiritual birth. It is not physical but spiritual. In fact, these last words of Jesus would directly contradict the idea of baptism as a requirement for salvation because baptism is seen.
So, yes, I believe most definitely that the water refers to physical birth.
TM:
Not to mislead you, Zane Hodges, a very respected theologian, says that people have strong opinions on both sides:
"One of the best known interpretive problems in the Gospel of John is found in the Savior’s famous dictum that, “Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God” (John 3:5). The commentary tradition on the Fourth Gospel is deeply divided as to whether or not this assertion contains a reference to baptism and strong opinions have been held on both sides of the question."
Hodges, Z. C. (1978). Water and Spirit—John 3:5: Problem Passages in the Gospel of John Part 3: Bibliotheca Sacra, 135, 206.
TM:
By the way, I am not saying Hodges agrees with me. From a hermeneutics point of view, we prefer literal reading to a metaphoric reading. The way I express it is a more literal view that only uses symbols as they are explained as symbols. Jesus explains the wind, he does not explain the water, hence we would use literal for water.
